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Representatives of the Seneca Nation on August 14th urged the administration of New York Gov. David Paterson to veto a bill that would require tax collections on cigarettes currently sold tax-free by tribal retailers. On August 8th, the New York Senate passed a bill aimed at ending tax-free cigarette sales on Indian reservations as a way to collect hundreds of millions of dollars in cigarette taxes that currently remain uncollected every year. The bill would ban manufacturers from selling tobacco products without a State tax stamp to any wholesaler that does not certify that the cigarettes will not be resold tax-free. Untaxed cigarettes can still be sold by tribal stores to Native Americans. Seneca leaders claim that the tax collections would harm the western New York economy. Gov. Paterson’s aides declined to say what he might do with the bill. Meanwhile, new legislation introduced on August 13th would make wholesalers pay cigarette excise taxes and allow Indian tribes to seek refunds for the taxes paid on any cigarettes that were sold to other Indians (AP 8/15).
So what do you think? Should the State of NY collect the taxes or should the Seneca Nation continue to maintain their soveriegnty? Or is this just a by product of taxing tobacco? Let folks know what you think about this issue! |
NEW YORK: Seneca Nation Against Tax Collection On Their Cigarette Sales
August 26th, 2008 | Current Issues, General, Regulations: FDA etc. | Lou Maiellano
40 comments ↓
Per recent conversations with folks in New York (who have been advocating for equitable collection of NY state cigarette excise revenue), it appears that Governor Paterson isn’t supportive of the legislation, but instead desires to negotiate a deal with the Native Tribes (just as Pataki and Spitzer unsuccessfully attempted to do during the past decade).
Also, the NY legislation doesn’t appear to target the manufacture of counterfeit cigarettes by Native Tribes in NY that are smuggled into Canada (many of which are sold in plastic bags of 200 cigarettes without payment of any cigarette excise taxes ).
Most of the cigarettes sold by the Native Tribes in NY (via the Internet and at retail locations on Tribal land) have paid federal cigarette excise tax, but not the state cigarette excise tax.
I have question regarding the federal excise tax on cigarettes in NY sold on the reservations? Do the brands made by the Nations sold on the resevations include the federal excise tax?
Per kentucky rebel’s inquiry, I strongly doubt (but am not certain) that cigarettes manufactured by Native Americans (virtually all of which are smuggled into Canada in plastic bags of 200 sticks) pay any US federal cigarette excise taxes.
I think that only one Native reservation is actually manufacturing cigarettes, while many other reservations sell FET paid cigarettes via retail stores on reservations and the Internet.
I think that they should play by the same rules as retailers. Let’s face it, they were conquered. Why should they have different rights? That was hundreds of years ago. It is time to integrate into society. Same with the casinos. We need to stop with these liberal agendas.
Okay, my fiance’ is Seneca. I am glad that they don’t have to pay any taxes, I mean really they are put through a lot of bull…and yes that was hundreds of years ago, but really if you think about it, it is still going on today! They are still confinded in a way to a reservation, they don’t really get jack squot! Dude, it was only what 100 years ago and sooner than that, that a lot of this stuff was going on. So, if you disagree with the no taxes law, screw you. Keep your opinion, you don’t have to go through what they do. Learn your history or even the present!!!
Being of Native American descent I see the argument from a perspective often not discussed. The state of NY is poorly run and spends much money on excessive programs and then looks to blame the situation on the Native Americans. If the state ran itself better and did away with frivilous programs that are not needed the deficit would be reduced.
Here’s another take: The Native Americans have been granted these rules of autonomy in order to assist them in rebuiling their society after being decimated by the white settlers. Call it an advantage for people at a disadvantage.
The Society for the Blind is awarded non-bid concession rights in state institutions in order to benefit those people who are blind and disadvantaged. The current governor, Patterson, of NY is blind. I haven’t heard him trying to eliminate this element of unfair competition!
Awesome point – Great thinking OTP Kid.
Like the indian reservations are the cause for NY’s budget problems – cut me a break! Get over it – go cut some of the unneeded programs that are sapping the government’s finances.
You would have thought Eliott Spitzer would have found a hooker on an Indian Reservation just for good measure….
Yeah – now that’s funny! Probably would call him chief snake in the grass!
the indian nations should be just that! the right to govern thier NATION on financial matters should be their right and priveledge. no different than how we deal with france or canada, we dont dictate to them on thier issues. let them have peace and prosperity as free americans !!!!!
I think this whole problem is Kevin Costner’s fault when he made Dances with Wolves. He made the Indians think they were hot $h!+ again, and now they’re out of control.
It’s a good thing Waterworld never took off, just imagine the problems we’d have then!
This whole issue is just an example of the political system going bad and blaming a very small segment of people for the massive mismanagement of a state government. The government just needs to focus on the fact that they need to reduce their expenses.
I believe the Seneca Nation continue to maintain their soveriegnty. People like Mayor Bloomberg and Eliott Spitzer are trying to use this to take attention off of there failures.
Bloomberg is NYC mayor, the people on the island are unable to vote him in or out of office. Instead of focusing on Wall street Main street crash he is worried about the native americans on long island. Then he changes laws to meet his own agenda and says its to help NYC through this crisis, but what was he doing to prevent this crisis (to busy worrying about the native americans on the island).
Fact remains a treaty was worked out and an agreement was reached with native american a now that government sees them benefiting a little, they want to change the rules. In there heads they are the only ones allowed to profit.
Fact remains no other state, but NY iss having problems sticking to there agreement with there native americans. There bad financial management got them is the mess that there in and there trying to use native americans as there scapegoat. Not only did they take away there land, now there trying to take away there businesses
NY Governor Paterson needs to negotiate a settlement with the Native Tribes in NY similar to the one agreed to last week by Oklahoma and The Cherokee Nation at
http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/content/items/TobaccoCompact2008.pdf
Paterson should also insist that any agreement ban the manufacturing and smuggling of counterfeit cigarettes across the Canadian border.
It’s definitely government out of control in NY state. And it gives NYACS a reason to exist. We get tired of hearing of the plight of NY State being the fault of the Natives. Why get all bent out of shape over natives learning the fruits of capitalism? The NY government foolishly raises taxes on cigarettes. Why don’t all you folks against the natives take on the true issue of out of control spending? Raise taxes on other items and just stop the foolishness.
Here is a recent development in NY reported in a Syracuse newspaper:
Here’s the latest:: The district attorneys in Seneca County and Cayuga County say they believe all sales of untaxed cigarettes at the Cayuga Indian Nation-owned stores in Seneca Falls and Union Springs are illegal.
Seneca County DA began Richard Swinehart and Cayuga County DA Jon Budelmann say the two stores are not on sovereign Indian land, or on reservations, so they must be treated as ordinary private businesses.
Swinehart said he based his reasoning on the Oneida Indians’ case with the city of Sherill. In that case, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Indian nations could not claim sovereignty on land they purchased. The two Cayuga stores are on purchased land.
Swinehart said Seneca sheriff’s deputies seized 10,000 cartons of cigarettes from the Seneca Falls store today. Their taxable value is $275,000, he said.
The Lake Side Trading store on Route 90 in Union Springs remained closed early this afternoon, with yellow police tape strung across the entrance.
Cayuga Nation represenatives Clint Halftown and Tim Twoguns were inside the store.
“We’re speechless,” Twoguns said. He refered questions to the Cayuga County sheriff.
Outside, patrons attempting to buy gasoline at the posted price of $2.02 per gallon were forced to move on.
What we reported earlier:
Union Springs, NY — Sheriff’s deputies armed with search warrants are confiscating cartons of untaxed cigarettes this morning from two Cayuga Indian nation-owned convenience stores.
Cayuga County sheriff’s deputies arrived at the Lake Side Trading store on Route 90 in Union Springs at 10 a.m. Seneca County deputies conducted a simultaneous raid at the Lake Side store on Route 89 south of Seneca Falls.
In Union Springs, police asked all patrons to leave the store and cordoned it off with yellow police tape. About 15 deputies are taking out boxes of cigarettes and interviewing employees.
File photo, Eva Russo / The Post-Standard, 2003
“What kind of Americans are you?” yelled John Wood, of Seneca Falls, at customers stopping for gas at the new Lakeside Trading gas station in Seneca Falls in 2003. Picketers, including many members of Upstate Citizens for Equality, lined the street outside the gas station for approximately two hours that morning in protest.Sales of untaxed cigarattes by Indian nations has long been a thorny issue in New York. The Indian nations say they are sovereign and do not have to pay taxes.
Convenience store owners say their businesses face unfair competition.
Critics also say the state loses millions of dollars in tax revenues through the sale of cigarettes by Indians to non-Indians.
In October, state police charged a Lysander woman with tax evasion after accusing her possessing untaxed cigarettes outside the Union Springs store.
Gay C. Breed, 44, of 576 Lamson Road, has pleaded not guilty.
According to state police, Breed was charged by state police Trooper Gregory Schmitter after a routine traffic stop. According to court documents, Breed told the trooper she had just purchased five cartons of cigarettes at the Indian-owned convenience store.
None of the cigarettes had state tax stamps on them, and the receipt showed no sales tax, state police said. She had paid neither the excise tax on the cigarettes nor the tax on the purchase, Schmitter concluded.
State tax law prohibits anyone except an authorized agent from possessing more than 400 untaxed cigarettes. Breed’s five cartons contained 1,000 cigarettes.
Here’s a somewhat related article “Smuggling’s price” from the Ottawa Citizen
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=ecc66684-6dde-4924-bea7-9e54ff7b6063
Sure seems like there may be another fire on interstate 81 in the future!
Am interesting update from a friend in NY.
The Buffalo News
December 8, 2008 – ALBANY — The Paterson administration held closed-door negotiations today with Seneca Nation representatives, as pressure mounts on Gov. David Paterson to begin collecting taxes on cigarette sales by Indian retailers.
The talks are part of the administration’s attempt to resolve a dispute that eluded three governors before him: how to recoup what officials have said are at least $400 million in lost tax revenues through the Indian sales.
The talks, which included Paterson at the table, involved separate meetings with both the Seneca and Oneida Indian tribes.
Lawmakers are increasingly prodding Paterson to collect the tax to help close a looming $15 billion budget deficit that is threatening to lead to sizable cuts in education, health care and other programs next year. With untaxed gasoline sales on the reservations, some industry executives believe the state loses more than $1 billion a year in various state taxes from Indian tax-free retail sales.
The Seneca Nation declined comment on the afternoon talks, which took place in Paterson’s Manhattan offices. In the past, Seneca leaders have said they have little to negotiate, claiming the tax-free sales are protected by treaties dating back to George Washington.
A spokesman for the Oneidas did not have a comment.
Paterson has said he prefers to try to negotiate a solution, saying that the state would only be sued again if it tried to implement a law to collect the tax — thereby potentially delaying the matter for years.
His discussions today came less than two weeks before he is to unveil his plan to cut deficits both in the current fiscal year and 2009, and all sides are waiting to see if he banks on any revenues from Indian cigarette tax collections in his financial plan.
The Paterson administration had no comment on the meetings.
The Indians got their lands stolen by the states ??????
I find this to be always a very interesting discussion. I am a retailer in NY(LI) and I have yet to meet a customer that drove to a reservation with the purpose of loading up the old van with cigarettes from one of the NY reservations. Here are two things I have noticed: 1- Many consumers have reduced their consumption very slightly 2- A trip to the state of Delaware is not uncommon with a purpose of buying cigarettes. Even Pa has a better price!
It just seems ridiculous to place the blame of faulty governing as well as faulty policy on the reservations. Governments ill-advised principles of relying on taxes from a product that they are continually attempting to destroy in my mind ranks up there with one amputating ones leg because they stubbed their toe! Foolishness.
Hey Justice – Government is still today stealing from us all as we do not hold it responsible for it’s actions. The leadership in NY just needs a complete overhaul. Hey when NYC raised it’s tax did it cause a decrease in sales? Where those sales go to? Interestingly if you ever travel I-95 the lost NY sales can be found as far down as South Carolina for all the folks that travel to Florida. Don’t blame the consumer for looking for the best deal! Maybe if Eliot Spitzer had paid taxes on his extra curricular activities the budget short fall would have found a new source of revenue!
Folks just need to leave the reservations alone! One needs to wonder why the NY government can’t make a budget that works. Isn’t it a planning process that would require you to use a calculator. Makes me wonder!
Yesterday, NY Supreme Court Justice Kenneth Fisher upheld Cayuga and Seneca counties’ attempts to stop the Cayuga Indian nation from selling tax free cigarettes sold in convenience stores owned by the tribe.
http://www.9wsyr.com/mostpopular/story/Judge-rules-Cayuga-Nation-cant-sell-cigarettes/LjLQ98_KzU-0nbGg-wpFYA.cspx
The Seneca Nation is filled many uneducated people in key positions. They are not capable of functioning without the help of the Federal government. They are not an independent nation and anything but sovereign. It is about time that they figured out that they lost the war and have to deal with the consequences. They believe that they are entitled, but why? Did they earn anything? Have they worked for anything? The only contributions to current society are smoking and gambling. Look at the state of their health care, they are in ill health from not taking care of themselves.
Well anyway that is besides the point, what should happen is that the non-natives should be charged tax on goods bought down there and natives should be tax free. that was the spirit of the treaties. The Indians are exploiting the treaties to perpetuate their laziness and learned helplessness. I think that the IRS should camp out outside and audit those individuals that are non-native and see if they are claiming purchases.
I saw yesterday that NY is going to institute a fat tax. Well we sure know this will deal with a majority of folks rather than a minority but end up affecting all!
It is my understanding that Paterson’s proposed tax would apply to sugar filled sodas and drinks, but not to diet sodas or food products.
Seems like an excellent tax to offset healthcare costs and encourage healthier diets, as excessive sugar consumption causes obesity, which causes diabetes, heart disease, and injuries.
Hey Godshall – give me break – Government will just gather the taxes in “name of purpose” but quickly as usual reclass it to their liberal propaganda. Ever think that before you know it the people of this country will be totally controlled by the government. Will I have to ask Government may I take a …. ? Probably figure out a way to tax that one day!
Seneca Employee – I really don’t think calling native americans uneducated is an issue that is relative as educated folks in Albany created this mess by raising taxes on a product that they would like to minimze knowing the issues. So now they will attack beverages like a bottle of Coke but not a bottle diet Coke. Again here we find so called educated folks making decisions that are quite possibly wrong. Is Dt. Coke really safe? Aren’t artificial sweetners also a severe health issue. My point is that we have folks in positions of authority that are more concerned about getting votes. See companies that freely spend with no restraint and return on investment typically go bankrupt and out of business. Well that’s the real issue that states need to correct. The well is not endlessly deep and they can not continue to give and give with very little return. It seems too me that once a person is on welfare the govt does very little to get them off welfare or to get some type of benefit from it. On the other hand I see to many that get welfare look for ways to get more or abuse the system. There is need but society is lazy and expects the govt to hand it over.
I dont talk in fancy words but from the heart.Ny State use to be a place i was proud to say i was from. I think it stinks when you cant smoke when & where you like or BUY your smokes where you want. Land of the free???? Bull. I resent someone telling my family how or where to spend our paychecks that we pay taxes on and now the idiots in goverment cant back off of the indians? Bull! Do you see them doing anything that would make a diffrence ( to the negative) in THEIR pockets? Here they have all the buisnesses install seperate ventalation units and rooms for smoking customers then after thats all said and done BAM! No Smoking Allowed. Dont they have better things to do? Oh…. thats right..Go make things bad for our indians! I dont smoke but thats MY choice..my husband does and you know…its ok..it his choice! LEAVE THE INDIANS ALONE! They are good people… take a closer look @ them maybe you,ll learn something from them! No wonder people are leaving NY state… when hubby retires next year we will be selling out the home and out of this state also. Stick the Govenour where the sun dont shine! Hagd. And Too you indians, May God Bless you and Good Luck! Dont Give UP!
I am an all american white girl born and raised in New York. Native son said it best, New York spends, spends, spends and then wants to blame someone other than themselves for the mess they put us in. New York City is the blame for New York State’s financial hardships.
The Indians were not conquered, they were lied to. They believed our government and our government continues in the same manner today as it did back then, lies, lies, and more lies.
And for the rest of you poor souls who know nothing about what you are talking about (with the exception of the indians, excuse me) live in New York for a SHORT
hit the wrong button and sent before I finished.
So with the exception of the indians, the rest of you yahoots live in New York for a SHORT time, live under the State’s rules and regulations and pay our taxes then tell me how you feel.
Indians, stay strong and stay proud of who you are.
The State governments want to take more from the Indians when it was they that broke 523 treaties.Granted it is 100 years later but this treaty was written giving the natives sovereignty, what part of this word don’t you understand. Sovereignty doesn’t mean freedom unless your states need more money. Obviously your words are as stupid as your ideas. Leave the indians alone and stop stealing.Better yet send the illegals home you will have more money to pay your bills with. Nothing against them but don’t steal from Indians them to give it away to illegals.
Found this on the TMA web site. Not seen this referenced!
The administration of New York Gov. David Paterson has quietly written off the $65 million in taxes it had been expecting to collect this fiscal year on cigarette sales by American Indian retailers to non-Indians, indicating that the governor does not expect to begin collecting the taxes until at least April 1, 2010, the beginning of the new fiscal year. (Buffalo News 08/16)
This scene goes back 20 years, with the height of the controversy culminating in the death of 2 NY state troopers in the late 80’s early 90/91. Federal law prohibits the collection of state taxes on a sovereign nation that was done via a signed treaty with the United States Government. Taxes will NOT be collected on the reservation – ever.
You are so right Kid, we are not violating any rights or laws in the state of NY. Non native New Yorkers need to realize it is their leaders that have created this issue. If 20% of all New Yorkers used any specific product that the majority did not care about and the state leaders taxed it excessively the same situation would be at hand but possibly over twinkies!
LEAVE THE INDIANS ALONE!!! What is going to happen to this state when all smokers QUIT?? No tax revenue from smokes no matter where you used to purchase them!! Where will the taxes come from then? No doubt,the beleaguered property owner!!! New Yorkers go to other states with lower retail taxes,will we be punished for doing that,too? Just getting the best bang for our buck!!! Most of us smokers have had our rights violated by NYS’s non-smoking campaign,now we and the Indians are going to told where to buy product?? It is simply WRONG to try and make the Indians NYS’s tax collectors!!!!
Amy I totally agree,and have said the same thing,what if we all quit smoking than what ? Oh I know,just start taxing us on something else.Our gov.is so crooked.They say raising tax on cigarettes will stop people from smoking ,but yet they feel they are losing tax money because people buy from the Indians.Any way I can save a few dollars I will.Paterson and all his cronies can kiss my as!!!!!!!! Leave the Indians alone!
One of the biggest problems here is the support thrown at this issue by NACS and NYACS. They continue to focus on this issue with the belief that the Indians are putting C-store chains out of business in cigarettes. The truth is cigarette volume is declining thanks to the brainiacs at PM, and they want to blame the tribes.
Who is Lyle and what insideous role is he playing on this?
I saw Lyle a couple of years ago at the tobacco show get ridiculed by folks from the retail channel as well as the tobacco folks. I really don’t see the logic of those who are against the tribal rights. They did nothing in the situation to cause the problem. I mean did they raise taxes to offset budget deficits? No! I understand that it creates a disadvantage for non-native retail outlets but the US Government negotiated the deal to give the tribal communities sovereign rights. Both NACS and NYACS need to get real.
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